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Catastrophism Etherpad Copy
« on: March 03, 2016, 06:58:39 pm »
Cavitation, a process well-studied by engineers and geologists today, is known to be quite capable of eroding huge volumes of rock and concrete quickly. As water moves at a high velocity over a rough surface, vacuum bubbles form and implode with such a great force that they fracture the adjacent rock, thereby accelerating erosion. ... We are still left to ponder the effects of the much more intense great Flood, which would have produced erosion on an even grander scale with waters flowing at much greater sustained volumes and velocities.1 [Austin, S., ed. 1994. Grand Canyon: Monument to Catastrophe. Santee, CA: Institute for Creation Research.]

Beware the bubble’s burst
As Dr Holroyd points out, water flowing over topographical ‘bumps’ and ‘holes’ is more likely to cavitate than water flowing over a smooth surface. Very high rates of flow are required—shallow water (< 10 metres deep) must be flowing at speeds of at least 30 m/s—and the deeper the water, the greater the speed required for cavitation. Holroyd, E., Cavitation processes during catastrophic floods, Proceedings of the 2nd International Conference on Creationism July–August 1990, pp. 101–113 (note especially pp. 108–109).

Radioactive Decay Rates Not Stable
Now, Italian research shows evidence that a process called “cavitation” accelerated the nuclear decay of thorium (Th228). In particular, it seems that cavitation caused radioactive thorium decay to accelerate by a factor of 10,000 times during a 90-minute experiment.2 [Cardone, F., R. Mignani R. and A. Petrucci. 2009. Piezonuclear decay of thorium. Physics Letters A. 373 (22): 1956-1958.]  ... Cavitation may also affect the nuclei of atoms in heavily resonating solutions.

The Age of the Earth
In view of the profound significance of these AMS 14C measurements on fossil materials that, according to the standard geological time scale, should be entirely '14C-dead', the Radioisotopes and the Age of the Earth (RATE) team has undertaken its own AMS 14C analyses of such fossil material.1 The first set of samples consisted of ten coals obtained from the U. S. Department of Energy Coal Sample Bank maintained at Penn State University. The ten samples include three coals from the Eocene part of the geological record, three from the Cretaceous, and four from the Pennsylvanian. These samples were analyzed by what we deemed one of the foremost AMS laboratories in the world. Figure 1 below shows in histogram form the results of these analyses.
- These values fall squarely within the range already established in the peer-reviewed radiocarbon literature. When we average our results over geological interval, we obtain values of 0.26 pmc for Eocene, 0.21 for Cretaceous, and 0.27 for Pennsylvanian that are remarkably similar to one another. Although the number of samples is small, we observe little difference in 14C level as a function of position in the geological record. This is consistent with the young-earth view that the entire fossil record up to somewhere within the upper Cenozoic is the product of the Genesis Flood and therefore such fossils should share a common 14C age.
- Applying the uniformitarian approach of extrapolating 14C decay into the indefinite past leads to a translation of the measured 14C/12C ratios into ages that are on the order of 50,000 years (2-50000/5730 = 0.0024 = 0.24 pmc). But uniformitarian assumptions are inappropriate when one considers that the Genesis Flood removed vast amounts of living biomass from exchange with the atmosphere -- organic material that now forms the earth's vast coal, oil, and oil shale deposits as well as the fossil portions of the earth's fossiliferous limestone. A conservative estimate for the pre-Flood biomass is 100 times of that of today (it could well have been higher). If one takes as a rough estimate for the total 14C in the biosphere before the cataclysm as 50% of what exists today (it might well have been lower) and assumes a relative uniform 14C level throughout the pre-Flood atmosphere and biomass, then we might expect a 14C/12C ratio of about 0.005 or 1/200 of today's atmospheric value in the plants and animals at the onset of the Flood. This is because the large absolute amount of 12C would have diluted the smaller total amount of 14C. When we include this more realistic value for the pre-Flood 14C/12C ratio in our calculation of age, we find that a value of 0.24 pmc corresponds to an age of only 6000 years (0.005 x 2-6000/5730 = 0.0024 = 0.24 pmc). Even though our estimates are rough here, they illustrate that accounting for the Flood cataclysm is essential in the step of converting the 14C/12C ratio into a real age for organisms living at the time of the Flood.
- Some readers at this point may be asking, how does one then account for the tens of millions and hundreds of millions of years that other radioisotope methods yield for the fossil record? Most of the other RATE projects address this important issue. Equally as persuasive as the 14C data is evidence from RATE measurements of the diffusion rate of helium in zircon crystals that demonstrates the rate of nuclear decay of uranium into lead and helium has been dramatically higher in the past and the uniformitarian assumption of a constant rate of decay is wrong.2 Another RATE project documents the existence of abundant polonium radiohalos in granitic rocks that crystallized during the Flood and further demonstrates the uniformitarian assumption of constant decay rates is incorrect.3 Another RATE project provides clues for why the 14C decay rate apparently was affected so little during episodes of rapid decay of isotopes with long half-life.4 The bottom line of this RATE research is that the case is now extremely compelling that the fossil record was produced just a few thousand years ago by the global Flood cataclysm.

Flood Legends From Around the World
 D = Destruction by Water
. --- G = (God) Divine Cause
. --- ----- W = Warning Given
. --- --- --- --- H = Humans Spared
. --- --- --- --- ----- A = Animals Spared
. --- --- --- --- --- --- --- V = Preserved in a Vessel
D --- G --- . --- H --- A --- V --- 32 U.S.A. (Hawaii)- legend of Nu-u
D --- . --- . --- H --- A --- V --- 33 Vanualu- Melanesians
D --- G --- W --- H --- A --- . --- 14 French Polynesia- Raiatea
D --- G --- . --- H --- . --- V --- 13 Fiji- Walavu-levu tradition
D --- G --- . --- H --- . --- V --- 26 New Zealand- Maori
D --- . --- . --- H --- A --- V --- 01 Australia- Kurnai
D --- . --- . --- H --- A --- V --- 05 Borneo- Sea Dayak
D --- G --- . --- H --- A --- V --- 09 China- Lolo
D --- G --- . --- H --- . --- V --- 23 Malay Peninsula- Jekun
D --- . --- . --- H --- A --- V --- 34 Vietnam- Bahnar
D --- . --- . --- H --- A --- V --- 06 Burma- Singpho
D --- G --- . --- H --- . --- V --- 18 India- Andaman Islands
D --- . --- W --- H --- A --- V --- 19 India- Bhil
D --- G --- W --- H --- . --- V --- 20 India-Kamar
D --- . --- W --- H --- . --- V --- 28 X . Russia- Vogul
D --- . --- W --- H --- A --- . --- 21 Iran- Zend-Avesta
D --- . --- W --- H --- A --- V --- 02 Babylon- Berossus' account
D --- G --- W --- H --- A --- V --- 03 Babylon- Gilgamesh epic
D --- G --- W --- H --- A --- V --- 11 East Africa- Masai
D --- G --- W --- H --- . --- V --- 12 Egypt- Book of the Dead
D --- . --- . --- H --- A --- V --- 15 Greece- Lucian's account
D --- G --- . --- H --- . --- V --- 22 Italy- Ovid's poetry
D --- . --- . --- H --- A --- V --- 35 Wales- Dwyfan/Dwyfan legend
D --- G --- . --- H --- . --- V --- 17 Iceland- Eddas
D --- G --- . --- H --- A --- V --- 07 Canada- Cree
D --- G --- W --- H --- A --- V --- 08 Canada- Montagnais
D --- . --- W --- H --- A --- V --- 29 U.S.A. (Alaska)- Kolusches
D --- G --- . --- H --- A --- V --- 30 U.S.A. (Alaska)- Tlingit
D --- . --- W --- H --- A --- V --- 31 U.S.A. (Arizona)- Papago
D --- . --- W --- H --- . --- V --- 24 Mexico- Codex Chimalpopoca
D --- . --- W --- H --- A --- V --- 25 Mexico- Huichol
D --- . --- W --- H --- A --- V --- 10 Cuba- original natives
D --- G --- . --- H --- A --- V --- 16 Guyana- Macushi
D --- G --- W --- H --- . --- V --- 04 Bolivia- Chiriguano
D --- . --- W --- H --- A --- . --- 27 Peru- Indians of Huarochiri
35 --- 18 --- 17 --- 35 --- 24 --- 32 --- Total Occurrences out of 35

(See Nov. 12 Transcript at: )

1. Evidence for deposition of 10 million tonnes of impact spherules across four continents 12,800 y ago
2. The Case for the Younger Dryas Extraterrestrial Impact Event: Mammoth, Megafauna and Clovis Extinction
1. Mike Fischer's Shock Dynamics
2. Noah’s Flood: The Key to Correct Interpretation of Earth History

Add reference:

Priority #1. Prove: The Great Flood caused rapid sedimentation and fossilization (conforming rock strata, fossilization of delicate creatures, sandstone formed underwater).
Priority #2. Prove: Ocean evaporation and cold influx caused glaciation.

Priority 1. GREAT FLOOD
__Answer these counterclaims:

__JG on ages of rivers, lakes etc:
__Noah’s Flood: The Key to Correct Interpretation of Earth History
proves dating methods are wrong; C14 in fossils; 5 megasequences unconformities caused by 2500 m high tidal pulses; fossil graveyards; coal deposits; massive final stage erosion; rapid mountain uplift & ice age; ocean crust; plate tectonics
LST said: Noah's Flood was only the beginning of multiple catastrophes that have occured in the past few thousands of years. I just looked at that paper briefly, so I cannot comment in detail. However, I am somewhat familar with the sources and references used by the author. They tend to think that Noah's Flood was the only worldwide catastrophe. Therefore, they try to make their Flood model cover everything, including things that happened many hundreds of years later, like the freezing of the Mammoths, etc.
__Fast strata formation
__Proof The Earth Is Young and Noah's Flood
__Video called The Worldwide Flood - Geologic Evidences:
__The Worldwide Flood - Geologic Evidences Part 2
__Proof The Earth Is Young and Noah's Flood [fast coal & oil making]
Map showing the distribution of the lower Cambrian Tapeats Sandstone and its equivalents across North America.
__Is there evidence that the flood was global?
__Worldwide Flood, Worldwide Evidence:
__Startling evidence for Noah’s Flood: Footprints and sand ‘dunes’ in a Grand Canyon sandstone!
__Video: The Mystery of Coal:
This says coal consists largely of pieces of tree bark, wood, leaves etc. Peat bogs don't contain that, so coal doesn't come from there, despite the popular theory. But in Spirit Lake after the Mt. St. Helens eruption there was found layers of tree bark on the bottom a few feet thick, while the tree logs were still floating on top.
__Video: Extraordinary Evidence that Dinosaurs Lived with Man:
It says 95% of fossils are from marine invertibrates. 4.5% are from plants and algae. Vertebrates make up .0125%. This isn't widely mentioned, because it gives the impression of a Flood Deposit. Human bones were found in a dinosaur stratum. Many dinosaur and human footprints are shown.
__Dinosaur National Monument: Jurassic Park Or Jurassic Jumble?
Google Book Evolution Impossible says:
[p. 98] ... Often, the same particular combination of layers of sedimentary strata are found around the world. ... Fossiliferous lower Cambrian strata conformably overlay ... a particular type of sandstone layer known as quartzite, which does not contain fossils. This in turn unconformably overlays a great variety of different types of Precambrian rocks.
__Fossil Magnetism Reveals Rapid Reversals of the Earth's Magnetic Field: Since Continental Drift occurred during the Great Flood and largely caused it, the magnetic reversals on the seafloors must have occurred rapidly too, instead of over millions of years and that's what this website shows.
__GW said: The rain fell for 40 days non-stop "gushing" (Hebrew: geshen), due to the sudden influx of condensation nuclei into the atmosphere.
[It was] caused by the "fountains of the deep" as well as and initiated by the "matar" [meteors from space].
Then intermittent rain fell for 5 months. [But] this was a relatively small contributor to the water load of the flood.
In my work on catastrophic flood geology, I include tidal forces as a player. As I see it, the near pass and/or prolonged encounter with a large planetary body is responsible for the matar, the initial and perhaps ongoing breaching of the crust leading to seafloor spreading, as well as extreme tidal action. Taken together, these forces diminish the importance of the downpours of rain that highlight children's versions of the Noachian flood story. My own familiarity with tidal physics and mathematics is somewhat limited, but I understand generally that seismic sea-wave activity alone is probably insufficient to account for the lion's share of the sedimentary record -- tidal effects must play a significant part if we are to account for major sequences such as the Rockies, Grand Canyon, Andes and the Himalayans in the framework of Berthault's sedimentology. Multiple layering on such a grand scale requires the 2+ km depth plus strong current to account for the observed depths of rock formations in a catastrophic and recent time frame.
Hydroplate Video: Hydroplate theory may have something to add to the picture too. Here's a video about it:
Charles Chandler has reasoned at that the Supercontinent formed from part of the Moon. So Hydroplate theory, which says that the continents split apart because of underground chambers of water that erupted, may be partly correct. The water under the Supercontinent could have weakened part of it, where the Atlantic Ocean formed and the Asteroid would have provided the force to break the Supercontinent apart at that location. The large body of underground water could have provided lime and salt that salted the oceans and helped form sedimentary rock.
Here are pages from the website: and
Ref. 1. Bible; 2.; 3. GB; 4. JG:
-GW said: ATMOSPHERE: Atmospheric "collapse", indicated at the beginning of the flood event, was followed by the rebuilding of today's global wind system, which replaced a formerly worldwide greenhouse climate evidenced by the entire fossil record of the past. [It] also triggered the Ice Age which lasted (as I see it) for a couple centuries, and up to the present. The earth has been in a consistent warming trend, with a couple of small ice age glitches over the past few centuries.
Here are my Notes on the Flood Video called The Worldwide Flood - Geologic Evidences:
__3'37": Evidence: If there was a Great Flood, the ocean waters could have flooded the continents, bringing along sand, mud and ocean creatures (the ingredients of sandstone, shale and limestone).
5'20": Tapeats Sandstone, Redwall Limestone and Coconino Sandstone belong to 5 megasequences of strata that cover much of North America.
5'42": Tapeats covers about 2/3 of U.S. and part of western Canada. It's also found in Israel.
6'24": Redwall having same features and fossils is found in AZ, TN, PA, England, Himalayas near Nepal,
7'00": Cretacious chalk, over 1,000 ft thick in places, is found in Ireland, S. England, Europe, Egypt, Turkey, Western Australia and in the U.S. from NE to TX.
8'40": Coconino, 300 ft thick, has crossbedding diagonal to the horizontal strata formed from underwater sand dune waves with the tops washed off.
__10'53": Coconino covers from AZ to KS to TX. The sand waves started at 60 ft high each in water moving 3-5 mph. Coconino was deposited in a few days. The entire Grand Canyon strata were deposited in a few months.
12'54": Ayers Rock in central Australia is sandstone with nearly vertical strata with grains of different sizes, angular and some delicate, meaning they were deposited rapidly (from 60 miles away).
__15'57": Ayers sandstone is over 18,000 ft thick. It was deposited within hours by turbidity currents moving up to 70 mph.
20'00": Coconino is over Hermit shale. Shale is hardened mud. Coconino sand came from Canada
22'00": Navajo sandstone in s. Utah lies over Coconino. Navajo sand contains zircons and quartz eroded from mountains of PA and NY.
23'00": Sand waves are direction indicators, indicating that Flood waters flowed during the Paleozoic over the Americas from n.e. to s.w. The same direction of flow occurred on the other continents too.
Part 2:
3'58": The main strata of the Grand Canyon contain marine fossils. Redwall limestone is in the middle, containing many sea animals. It's 7 ft thick and over 180 miles wide.
8'20": In France there are similar sea animals buried with amphibians, spiders, scorpions, millipedes, insects and reptiles. There's similar mixture in CO along with birds etc. Similar in WY.
11'00": In Tasmania an 80 ft thick stratum contains broken shells, a toothed whale and a possum.
17'12": 7 trillion tons of vegetation are buried in the world's coal beds. Same coal beds in the U.S. extend also from England to Russia.
__... Delicate creatures are preserved. Some fish are preserved right after eating another fish, or giving birth, as evidence of rapid burial.
Evolution Impossible: 12 Reasons Why Evolution Cannot Explain the Origin of Life on Earth
_[p. 74-5] Another spectacular fossil dinosaur graveyard has been found in the Nemgt Basin of Mongolia, where hundreds of well-preserved articulated skeletons of dinosaurs have been found buried together with skeletons of mammals, lizards, and birds.
_[p. 75] The Cow Branch formation of shales that occurs in the Virginia-North Carolina border area of the United States contains an abundance of complete insect fossils. ... As Dr. Snelling poiints out, these shale fossil deposits are consistent with catastrophic deposition and burial, as insects do not simply die, fall into a body of water, and sink with dying fish, to be gradually covered up by slowly accumulating sediments.13
13. A.A.Snelling, Earth's Catastrophic Past (... 2009), Vol. 2, p. 477.
_[p. 77] ... Recent fossil finds of more than 3,000 dinosaur footprints ranging in length from 4 to 32 inches, including those of tyrannosaurs, coelurosaurs, and hadrosaurs, all facing the same way, strongly suggest these animals were fleeing some catastrophe.19
19. BBC News, Saturday 6 February 2010 "China Dinosaur Footprints Found in Zhucheng", (Scientists in China say they have discovered more than 3,000 dinosaur footprints, all facing the same way.) .
_[p. 78] Proteins, DNA, and soft tissue such as cartilage, ... in dinosaur fossils ... break down naturally fairly rapidly in the environment.... If the average rock temperature was 10°C (50°F), the DNA would not be detectable after 20,000 years [or less at higher temperature].22 Yet, in 1990, scientists from the University of California reported extracting DNA from fossil leaf samples found in rocks from the Clarkia fossil beds of Idaho [dated Miocene 17-20 million years old].23
22. C.Nielsen-Marsch, "Biomolecules in Fossil Remains, Multidisciplinary Approach to Endurance," The Biochemist (June 2002): p. 12-14.
23. E.M.Golenberg, D.E.Giannasi, M.T.Clegg, et al, Letters to Nature, vol. 344 (April 12, 1990): p. 656-8.
_[p. 93] [In the Werners' book, Living Fossils] Their examples, photographs of fossils and museum displays of creatures and plants found in the same strata as the dinosaurs, are presented alongside photographs of their currently living counterparts and include brittle stars, sea urchins, sea biscuits, starfish, sea cucumbers, crinoids, feather stars, shrimp, lobsters, crayfish, crabs, horseshoe crabs, termite nests, dragonflies, katydids, water skaters, waterbugs, woodwasps, beetles, scopionflies, mayflies, crickets, cockroaches, scallops, clams, mussels, cockscomb oysters, snails, nautiloids, elephant tusk shells, lamp shells, sea cradles, earthworms, tube worms, sponges, corals, sturgeon fish, coelacanths, lungfish, garfish, bowfin fish, eels, herring, orange roughy, angel sharks, rays, hagfish, salamanders, alligators, crocodiles, boa constrictor snakes, lizards, turtles, avocet (a modern bird ...), various mammals, Sequoia seed cones, Cook pine cones, redwood branches, cycads, maidenhair tree (ginkgo), ferns, horsetails, mosses, rhododendrons, lilies, sassafras, poplars, and other trees and plants.
... Paleontologists have found more than 430 mammal species in the dinosaur fossil layers, which show that these animals coexisted with the dinosaurs.31
31. Z.Kielan-Jaworowska, R.L.Cifelli, and Z.X.Luo, Mammals from the Age of Dinosaurs: Origins, Evolution, and Structure.
_[p. 100] The lower half of the Coconino Sandstone contains hundreds of fossilized footprint trackways of amphibians or reptiles. Studies of these footprints have shown that in almost all cases the trackways are going uphill.10 These puzzling trackways [very likely] were made underwater and not on dry sand dunes.11
10. C.W.Gilmore, "Fossil Footprints from the Grand Canyon; Second Contribution," ... p. 221
11. L.R.Brand and T.Tang, "Fossil Vertebrate Footprints in the Coconino Sandstone (Permian) of Northern Arizona: Evidence for Underwater Origin," Geology, Vol. 19 (1991): p. 1201-4.
_[p. 98] ... Often, the same particular combination of layers of sedimentary strata are found around the world. ... Fossiliferous lower Cambrian strata conformably overlay ... a particular type of sandstone layer known as quartzite, which does not contain fossils. This in turn unconformably overlays a great variety of different types of Precambrian rocks.

[Question: Why does the quartzite layer have no fossils?]
GW: Quartzite is a metamorphosed sandstone. That it overlays PreCambrian associates it with the terrain prior to the flood event. Fossils would be found above, rare below.


Priority #2. GLACIATION
Discuss if the cataclysm caused glaciation at higher latitudes.
Important Frozen Mammoth Facts:
Some mammoths were flash frozen to below -150F: cells didn't burst; stomach contents didn't break down;
Some died in standing or kneeling position buried in ice pellets and loess;
Mammoth tusks and some bones were peppered with micrometeorites;
Mammoth bones were broken by heavy objects;
Mammoths died of asphyxiation; their lungs were full of loess;
Streams were flash frozen containing fish and cattle in swimming positions;
Mammoths are found in yedomas, hills of muck that remained after surrounding similar material washed away;-
Dinosaur bone beds occur near mammoth sites on Alaska's north slope;
Muck contains broken tree and animal parts and wet loess all frozen;
Get WB info on the ICE PELLETS.

-The extinction of the woolly mammoth: was it a quick freeze?
-This map shows frozen mammoths in northern Siberia and some in Alaska.
-And this map shows those areas have sedimentary rock.
-At The Margins Of Cryptozoology: Mastodons and Amerinds.
-Mammoth Map:
-Liscomb bone bed
-Fiorillo's team found 14 individuals of Pachyrhinosaurus in one spot, leading him to believe they were washed down a river channel in a flood.
-Liscomb & Alaska bone beds Map:
[See below] “In the stomachs and between the teeth of the mammoths were found plants and grasses that do not grow now in northern Siberia. ‘The contents of the stomachs have been carefully examined,’ [according to Whitney in the Journal of the Philosophical Society of Great Britain, XII (1910), p. 56] they showed the undigested food, leaves of trees now found in Southern Siberia, but a long way from the existing deposits of ivory. Microscopic examination of the skin showed red blood corpuscles, which was a proof not only of a sudden death, but that death was due to suffocation either by gases or water, evidently the latter in this case. But the puzzle remained to account for the sudden freezing up of this large mass of flesh so as to preserve it for future ages.
-Three strikes wiped out woolly mammoths: The last known mammoths lived on Wrangel Island in Siberia 3,700 years ago
 “When the comet exploded in the air over the Great Lakes, there was a loud roar, a flash of light and heat hotter than the sun. A great wind of dust and debris followed, rolling across North America to the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans. It churned up the landscape and choked the animals. Hot ash fell across the land, causing vast forest and grass fires. The sky went dark for months until the dust settled.”
-Nanodiamond Discovery in Greenland Could Shed Light on Mass Extinction:
International Glaciological Society’s Journal of Glaciology: discovery of a layer of nanodiamonds in the Greenland ice sheet
-Younger Dryas climate event solved via nanodiamonds:
Nanodiamond map:
-The Younger Dryas boundary (YDB) [is] this thin, carbon-rich layer ... often visible as a thin black line a few meters below the surface.
Nanometer-sized diamonds occur at the base of a layer of sediment directly above the remains of extinct animals (mammoths, dire wolves, etc.) and artifacts from Clovis culture at the research site in Murray Springs, Arizona.

-Mammoth tusks show up meteorite shower
[Pieces from an] ancient meteorite shower have been found embedded in mammoth tusks and bison bone.The discovery of the 2–5 millimetre holes left by meteorites
The fragments, found in seven mammoth tusks and the skull and horns of a Siberian bison, match the geochemical composition of iron meteorites.
Some of the tusks are peppered with hundreds of the fragments, which had burnt grooves into the bone. All the pieces entered the bones on the skyward surfaces of the tusks and skull.
[West attended the] annual Tucson Gem and Mineral Show. [In a tusk there was] a burnt hole he tested with a small magnet. West bought it from ... Canada Fossils. [In the] company's collection of some 15,000 tusks [there was] evidence of micrometeorites in a batch from the Yukutia Peninsula in eastern Siberia.
-Micrometeorite Impacts in Beringian Mammoth Tusks and a Bison Skull
We have discovered what appear to be micrometeorites imbedded in seven late Pleistocene Alaskan mammoth tusks and a Siberian bison skull. The micrometeorites apparently shattered on impact leaving 2 to 5 mm hemispherical debris patterns surrounded by carbonized rings.
X-ray analysis showed tiny rock fragments deep inside those holes, and metallurgical tests confirmed the fragments did come from meteors.
The small holes with meteorite fragments were found in about one out of every 1,000 pieces of mastodon ivory pieces
"In the bison skull, since that was bone, we could see renewed growth around these particles after they had been impacted. So presumably the bison — that particular individual, at least — survived the impact."

-Berringian Megafaunal Extinctions
[Re] frozen animal mummies, 14C ages of these mummies are bimodally distributed, having peaks coincident with the earlier ~37 ka B.P., and ~13 ka B.P. Younger Dryas, onset extinction events.
[There were] extensive internal injuries (e.g. large bone fractures, hemorrhaging) and apparent rapid burial of the mummies. 14C ages for five of these fossils have a weighted mean age of 33 ± 2 ka B.P.
-Did the Frozen Mammoths Die in the Flood or in the Ice Age?
 no more than several dozen mammoths have been found frozen or partially frozen. These bones are found in the frozen tundra (or frozen soil below the surface), and are not found in the thick sequences (ten thousand feet thick in places) of sedimentary rock lying stratigraphically below the frozen soil. The frozen parts, are, with few exceptions, found in the frozen banks of modern rivers, usually in small lenses within the larger tundra layer. Furthermore, the stomach contents and unswallowed food (actually caught between the teeth) are that of a mountain meadow, not unlike that of alpine regions today. If the Flood deposited sedimentary rock (as a rule) then the soil layer in which the mammoths are found must be a later deposit.  In the early years after the Flood, there would have been few predators of large animals, and enough vegetation to support large herds.
-What Caused the Extinction of Ice Age Animals?
The Ice Age ...  was a result of Noah's Flood--an event that heated ocean waters enough to cause the evaporation needed to transfer precipitation onto the post-Flood continents. As the oceans cooled, the massive glaciers at the temperate latitudes melted, causing a series of catastrophic local floods. These floods carved out places such as South Dakota's Badlands and the English Channel.3  The last part of the Ice Age occurred about 700 years after the end of the Flood.4
The Ice Age: Causes and Consequences
In recent years such ruins were found in the Black Sea, leading many to speculate that Noah's Flood was responsible. But this could not be. Ignored were waterborne sediments thousands of feet thick underneath the Black Sea that are the legacy of Noah's Flood. The ruins were built after Noah, but were inundated by major flooding as the rising Ice Age meltwater overtopped the natural dam near today’s Istanbul. A similar scenario explains the Mediterranean Sea. The rising waters breeched the "dam" at Gibraltar and flooded a low-lying floodplain with inland lakes. Water trapped as ice on the continents lowered the sea level by an estimated four to six hundred feet, no doubt exposing the continental shelves. During the Ice Age, all the continents were probably connected by land bridges. Today, we find numerous remains of civilizations that evidently had been built in coastal areas soon after the Flood.
-Earth Rings and Frozen Mammoths!
If the mammoth lived in an Arctic climate, its drinking water in the winter must have come from eating snow or ice. A wild elephant requires 30-60 gallons of water each day. The heat needed to melt snow or ice and warm it to body temperature would consume about half a typical elephant's calories. Unlike other Arctic animals, the trunk would bear much of this thermal stress. Nursing elephants require about 25% more water.
How would a mammoth that lives in an Arctic climate satisfy its considerable salt appetite? Elephants dig for salt using their sharp tusks. [There are] animals and plants buried nearby. For the mammoth this includes rhinoceroses, tigers, bison, horses, antelope, a 90-foot-tall fruit tree, and temperate species of grasses. All live in warm climates. Some frozen remains are of burrowing animals, such as voles, who would not burrow in rock-hard permafrost. Even larvae of the warble fly have been found in a frozen mammoth's intestine -- larvae identical to those in tropical elephants today. No one argues that the animals and plants buried near the mammoths were adapted to the Arctic. Why then do so for the mammoths? An article in an old copy of The Readers' Digest Book of Strange Stories and Amazing Facts, reported that frozen-food experts had been asked their opinion on the frozen mammoths. Their verdict? "To deep freeze a huge living mammoth, insulated in thick fur...stupendously cold temperatures of below -101 degrees C. (-150 degrees F.) would be required. Such temperatures have never been recorded -- not even in the Arctic." The article goes on: "Apparently, at one moment the mammoth was munching away peacefully at the grass and butter-cups growing lush in the sunshine of a temperate plain. The next it was subjected to cold so bitter that it was deep frozen where it stood" (ibid.) Many of the frozen mammoths have been found in a standing position, surrounded by frozen silt. Their body tissues and stomach contents had not even begun to decompose. Finally, their bodies were buried and protected from predators, including birds and insects. But burial could not have occurred if the ground were frozen as it is today. Again, this implies a major climate change, but now we can see that it must have changed suddenly. How were these huge animals quickly frozen and buried -- almost exclusively in muck, a dark soil containing decomposed animal and vegetable matter?
Muck is a major geological mystery. It covers one-seventh of the earth's land surface -- all surrounding the Arctic Ocean. Muck occupies treeless, generally flat terrain, with no surrounding mountains from which the muck could have eroded. Russian geologists have in some places drilled through 4,000 feet of muck without hitting solid rock. Where did so much eroded material come from?
Evidence for deposition of 10 million tonnes of impact spherules across four continents 12,800 y ago:


-The Younger Dryas impact hypothesis:a cosmic catastrophe
-The relation of the cubic nanodiamonds to glass-like carbon, which is produced during wildfires, suggests that these nanodiamonds might have formed after, rather than at the onset of, the Younger Dryas.
[The animals went extinct, then the layer of nanodiamonds was deposited. So I don't think the impact killed the animals. The Flood did.]
-Debate Heats Up Over Meteor's Role in Ice Age
Yet the new study concludes that sediment samples taken as evidence of the impact are nothing more than common fossilized balls of fungus and fecal matter - not exactly signs of a space rock crashing into Earth. 
Further, the samples -- spherules of carbon used by impact proponents to justify a meteor -- appear thousands of years before and after the Ice Age in sediment records, suggesting they have nothing to do with the impact
-Impacts, mega-tsunami, and other extraordinary claims
Bunch et al. advocate that spikes in microspherule frequency require an impact event—we suggest that much of this material represents micrometeorite ablation fallout, which can and should be concentrated at any depositional hiatus or in any condensed section (see calculations Further concentration could result from sediment reworking or from terrestrial sources. It is suggestive that Firestone et al.’s highest spherule counts are from Michigan and Alberta, downwind of the ca. 13 ka eruption sequence at Glacier Peak, Washington (Mastin and Waitt, 2000). Bunch et al. and Firestone and West also highlight iridium at up to 117 ppb, higher than many Cretaceous-Tertiary sites. This comparison is disingenuous. The 117 ppb concentration and another of 51 ppb Ir were from spherule and magnetic grain separates, fully consistent with a noncatastrophic micrometeorite source ( Firestone et al.’s bulk Ir concentrations peaked at just 2.3–3.8 ppb; maximum values were below detection at six of their 10 sites. Firestone et al. (2007a) note that these values are anomalously low, requiring them to invoke an Ir-depleted impactor.
-Did bison play a role in horses dying out in North America?
Evidence of embedded micrometeorite fragments in fossils do not line up with the extinctions, nor is there evidence of continent-wide wildfires at any time during the last Pleistocene warming.



Prove in order of priority:
1. The Great Flood caused rapid sedimentation and fossilization (conforming rock strata, fossilization of delicate creatures, sandstone formed underwater).
2. Ocean evaporation and cold influx caused glaciation.

3. Tidal Pulsing partly caused the Great Flood.
4. Rapid Continental Drift partly caused the Great Flood and caused Mountain Uplift and Vulcanism.
5. Asteroid Bombardment caused Rapid Continental Drift and ocean heating.
6. Planetoidal close encounter caused Tidal Pulsing of the Great Flood.

Probable Historical Sequence: Pre-Flood; Asteroid Bombardment; Continental Drift; Great Flood Erosion/Sedimentation; Mountain Uplift; Erosion/Sedimentation; Glaciation
Best candidate & evidence for cause of the Great Flood:
1. tidal uplift
1E. 6 unconformities between megasequences in the geological column
2. rapid continental drift
2E1. continents moved out in all directions from a single point
2E2. a large crater is found at that point

Make Videos? Can you help make videos weekly or monthly or help upload them online?
Science Conferences? Can you join in online conferences weekly or monthly to discuss scientific evidence for the Great Flood etc?
Continental Drift Video? Is this 15 minute video probably right about how continental drift was caused by an asteroid impact?
Time of Continental Drift? Did continental drift probably happen rapidly about the time of the Great Flood?
Rock Strata? Is this science paper probably right about how rock strata were deposited during the Great Flood a few thousand years ago?
Dating Methods? Are scientists' radiometric dating methods probably wrong when they indicate that most of the rock strata are millions of years old?
Corruption? Is there probably a lot of corruption in science and politics?
Global Warming? Is changes in radiation from the Sun probably the cause of global warming and cooling as this video says?

What is the likely sequence of events in the Great Flood cataclysm?
Which aspects of the cataclysm are likely to be easiest to prove and should be given priority in publicizing?
What's the best way to date the Great Flood and the Asteroid Bombardment accurately? Is the Bible accurate?
Is Jonathan Gray right that Adam kept a record of human history and Noah had a copy of Adam's record, and then Moses obtained Noah's record?
Is Charles Chandler right that Josiah[?] or someone conflated the histories of the Israelites and Judeans et al and changed the timelines in order to unite the people of Israel?
Is Gray right that rivers, waterfalls, lakes, coral reefs, big trees, deserts, ice sheets, genealogies, ancient civilizations, ancient maps etc date to about 4,200 years ago?
Did the sand, mud and lime that make up sedimentary rock strata come from the seafloors transported by tsunamis (as per the Proof The Earth Is Young video)?
Or did those materials come from the upstream continental margins via water flow cavitation (as per the Noah's Flood paper)?
If the sediments came from continental margins via cavitation, did the sand come from preCambrian granite or the quartzite layer above it on the Supercontinent and did the shale come from topsoil?
Or was there sand and mud on the seafloors before the Flood?
Were strata unconformities caused by high tidal pulses?
If so, were the pulses caused by a planetoidal close encounter?
If so, which planetoid was it?
Are modern mammal fossils found with dinosaur fossils?
Why do the Cambrian quartzite and Precambrian layers have no fossils?
Did the Ice Age occur immediately after the Great Flood?
If the Flood was global, how could the mammoths have been alive in large numbers, along with many other mammals etc, and then killed during the cataclysm by extreme flash freezing to below -150 F?
Did the Great Flood fail to wash over the Arctic region?
Otherwise, why aren't mammoth and other faunal remains fossilized within sedimentary rock?
How did tree and frozen animal parts get mashed together in muck and loess in the Arctic?
Was the muck and carnage caused by a permanent tornado at the north pole, as Cardona says the ancients reported in myths?
What do ancient myths say about the cataclysm?

SEQUENCE: What is the likely sequence of events in the Great Flood cataclysm?
A. The Probable Cataclysm Sequence is: 1. Pre-Flood Supercontinent; 2. Asteroid Bombardment; 3. Rapid Continental Drift; 4. Great Flood Erosion/Sedimentation; 5. Mountain Uplift; 6. Rainfall Erosion/Sedimentation; 7. Glaciation

PRIORITY: Which aspects of the cataclysm are likely to be easiest to prove and should be given priority in publicizing?
A. The Great Flood and Glaciation are likely easiest to prove.

DATING METHOD: What's the best way to date the Great Flood accurately?
A. Historical records and rates of change in geological, meteorological and biological processes are likely best.

HISTORICAL RECORD: Is Jonathan Gray right that Adam kept a record of human history and Noah had a copy of Adam's record, and then Moses obtained Noah's record?
A. ____ See his references to decide if that seems correct.

RECORD DISTORTION: Is Charles Chandler right that Josiah[?] or someone conflated the histories of the Israelites and Judeans et al and changed the timelines in order to unite the people of Israel?
A. ____ Discuss with CC to see if the timelines may be correctable.

DATING REFERENCES: Is Gray right that rivers, waterfalls, lakes, coral reefs, big trees, deserts, ice sheets, genealogies, ancient civilizations, ancient maps etc date to about 4,200 years ago?
A. ____ See his references to find which may be most accurate.

SEDIMENTS SOURCE A: Did the sand, mud and lime that make up sedimentary rock strata come from the seafloors transported by tsunamis (as per the Proof The Earth Is Young video)?
A. ____ Discuss this with Dr. Snelling, GW and others.

SEDIMENTS SOURCE B: Or did those materials come from the upstream continental margins via water flow cavitation (as per the Noah's Flood paper)?
A. ____ Discuss this with John Baumgardner, GW and others.

SEDIMENTS SOURCE C: If the sediments came from continental margins via cavitation, did the sand come from Precambrian granite and did the shale come from topsoil?
A. ____ Discuss this with GW and others.

SEDIMENTS SOURCE D: Or was there sand and mud on the seafloors before the Flood?
A. ____ Discuss this with Dr. Snelling, GW and others, but C seems more likely.

UNCONFORMITIES: Were strata unconformities caused by pauses between series of tsunamis?
A. Probably. See Noah's Flood paper for details.

__PULSE SOURCE A: If so, were the pulses caused by a planetoidal close encounter? If so, which planetoid was it?
A. Answer after proof of the Great Flood is widely accepted.

FOSSIL STRATA: Are modern mammal fossils found with dinosaur fossils?
A. See Evolution Impossilbe, which says 430 mammal species are found in dinosaur strata, but it doesn't say which species.
A. Also, see Don Patton's video, which shows human fossils in dinosaur strata and human footprints in strata with dinosaur footprints.

NONFOSSIL MEMBERS: Why do the Cambrian quartzite and Precambrian members have no fossils?
A. They were probably deposited on the Supercontinent long before the Great Flood and before the biosphere existed.

GLACIATION: Did the Ice Age occur immediately after the Great Flood? And what caused it?
A. It probably started during the Great Flood. It was probably caused by heating of the oceans by impacts and vulcanism and atmospheric inversion at the north pole.

FROZEN FOSSILS: If the Flood was global, how could mammoths and other mammals etc have been alive in large numbers and then killed during the cataclysm by extreme flash freezing to below -150 F?
A. ___The sedimentary rock strata in the Arctic were either deposited by the Great Flood, containing fossils, or they were part of the original supercontinent without fossils. If the latter, then the Great Flood did not have much effect on the Arctic. The Flood may not have reached the Arctic, if the Earth changed shape at that time, from prolate to spherical. It may have changed shape if it was magnetically squeezed following Saturn. Earth was a satellite of Saturn.

FLOOD LIMITS: Did the Great Flood fail to wash over the Arctic region or fail to make sedimentary rock over the muck? Where did the muck come from?
A. There's sedimentary rock under the muck.

FROZEN FOSSILS: Otherwise, why aren't Arctic faunal remains fossilized within sedimentary rock?

FROZEN MUCK: How did tree and frozen animal parts get mashed together in muck and loess in the Arctic?

MUCK CAUSE: Was the muck and carnage caused by a permanent tornado at the north pole, as Cardona says the ancients reported in myths?

CATACLYSM MYTHS: Do ancient myths help clarify the events of the cataclysm?

#2. GW said: Initiating event [was] the matar [meteor impacts].
Let's discuss if the cataclysm started with asteroid impacts (about 4,350 years ago), if impacts lasted 5 months, and if they were due to Earth crossing the Asteroid Belt.
Ref. 1. Bible (matar): GW; 2. CC on Crater Formation:

#3. GW said: [there was] subsequently the splitting of the crust [continental drift].
Should we discuss if the impact and continental drift caused tidal waves that washed over the continents, laying down sedimentary rock strata?
Let's discuss if the continents split off of the Supercontinent due to one large impact near the beginning of the Asteroid Bombardment
Did continental drift occur at the beginning, toward the end, or in several pulses during the Flood?
If the Navajo sandstone zircons came from mountains of PA and NY, and if those mountains were raised at the beginning of continental drift, then part or nearly all of the drift had to occur before the Navajo sandstone was deposited. But the Navajo sandstone is at the top of the geologic column, I think.
Ref. 1. Shock Dynamics:
15 minute Shock Dynamics video:

Chapman: Glacial Cataclysm:

Discuss if Giant Insects, Dinosaurs & Giant Mammals died out and all fossils formed due to sedimentation from the Great Flood.
See e.g. 1. Bible; 2. GW; 3.;
B wants to discuss: species extinction, fossil record

Discuss whether far side mountain building, flood basalts and vulcanism resulted from friction from continental drift. ......................
See e.g. 1. Bible; 2. GW; 3. Native American & Australian legends;
4. Tiahuanaco:;
GW: MOUNTAIN UPLIFT: After about 7+ months Noah's ark grounded somewhere in the Ararat region, not necessarily on Ararat itself;
during the next few months Noah observed the mountains rising up from the sea;
this was the time many of the boundary range volcanics (e.g. the Pacific Ring of Fire) took place.
Discuss if major erosion after the Flood formed the Grand Canyon etc
See e.g. 1. re Grand Canyon, WB:;
 #5c GW: SECONDARY SEDIMENTATION: Major erosion and subsequent deposition of sedimentary rocks occurred as the uplifts birthed watersheds that had not existed on the pre-flood continent, and not necessarily in the exact configuration of today.


Saturday Session 1 Transcript is posted at
J said: A task: given Earth as a physical memory system with a highly volatile atmosphere, very volatile oceans, more permanent geological features; and layered on that, human records, how to integrate these memories to extract the most accurate terrestrial history.
B wants to discuss: species extinction, fossil record

[Paleontology] A Biblical Perspective on Science
“Crouching Dragon, Hidden Dinosaurs - How Evolutionary Science Hides Historical Man and Dinosaur Interaction in Plain Sight”

Questionnaire Responses: ( Here are 14 members' answers to my recent questionnaire. Was there a Global Flood a few thousand years ago? 14 say probably. Was there other global cataclysm a few thousand years ago? 14 say probably. Was there more than one global cataclysm in the past 20,000 years? 13 say probably. Are some ancient myths good evidence for ancient global cataclysm? 14 say probably. Which, if any, planets probably have had drastic changes in their orbits in the past 20,000 years? 12 named one or more planets. Do you know of very good evidence for your ideas about ancient cataclysm? 14 say yes. Are you willing to change your mind if you learn of better alternative evidence? 14 say yes. Are you interested in friendly collaborative discussion about catastrophism online (preferably on an Etherpad)? 12 say yes. (One person answered later and adds 1 to each answer above.)


Is anyone here?

I am. But when were you here?
« Last Edit: March 03, 2016, 07:02:18 pm by Admin »

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